Introduction: Why Are We Talking About Suffering?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Welcome back to the Monday Morning Men podcast. I'm here with Thomas Dillinger, and it is a beautiful Monday morning for us. We're on episode 15. We are talking about suffering today, which uh I'm both suffering a little bit early this morning. We are both suffering. Sorry. Um speaking of suffering, you were telling me about I'm not gonna go there.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Um some of us have hit our mid-30s and just food doesn't settle the way it normally does. And you have to be careful when you eat and how you eat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

And I'm not doing either one of those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

What is it about your 30s? It's like all these problems start to I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

I think I'm dying all the time. I just wake up and assume it. Every day I open my eyes, I'm like, what? I'm back. I had a spring mixed salad last night, and I was like, what happened 30 minutes later with walnuts in it or almonds? So funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

This is taking a turn for the worst. So um get into the suffering. Let's get into suffering. So um excited about today, guys. If you've got questions or feedback or certain topics that you want to have covered, email us at info at mondaymorningmen.com. Make sure that you guys like, subscribe to this, and share it with somebody else who you think will be blessed by um what you're hearing on a consistent basis. We were talking before this, and it's one thing to be able to listen to podcasts, to um to have an earnest desire to better yourself, and that's that desire should always be there. But to be able to do this in community with other people, with others who can hold you accountable. Um so my encouragement to you is to share this with somebody, go through it together. And if this is something that is a sensitive point for you or something that you're dealing with, being able to share those burdens with somebody else can be really encouraging for you and help you go that much farther. There's my soapbox. I like it. That's a good one. With that, let's dive into uh this morning.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Yeah. Um I think even in this episode is something that if you're walking through it, community is vitally important. Uh but we are coming off of kind of what I would view some heavy hitters, just talking about peace and priorities, things that are uh not not that they're not basic, not that

Why Pain and Hardship Increase With Age

SPEAKER_02 2:53

any sort of topic is a basic topic, but maybe a little bit more higher thinking. And suffering is kind of one of them. It's not something that you probably woke up thinking about or something that you're consistently thinking about. I'm personally thinking about it a lot more. Um, I don't know if it is our 30s, but I feel like somebody I know is suffering at a higher level now, whether that is uh the passing of a child, um one of my my good buddies growing up is currently uh not got a great diagnosis with cancer. Like he, I mean, there's a healthy chance he's with Jesus in the next year or so. And so seeing him suffer with two young kids and and then you know, we've talked about Ben Sass, and there's a man that's clearly suffering right. Death just seems, and you know, maybe it's our information age, and we just get access to more information to people, or or it could be my age, but but I see suffering and specifically kind of the suffering into death a little bit more consistent than maybe I did before. Um, and so it's one of those things that if you are walking in that season, there there's what I'm realizing the more that I've thought about this and the more that I've studied it, we don't have a society that's built, not only not built, but doesn't really understand suffering, a society that runs from suffering, which when you look at scripture, this is not something uh that is not only it's not advocated by God to run from suffering. He actually promises we'll get into that. But it really, if we're if we're suffering and yet we're trying to come to a place of where we're wanting to walk in peace with God, and then we understand that we're supposed to prioritize, suffering is kind of one of those things that he uses to drive us into that place. Like when you're suffering, what's the the biggest desire you have is you just want peace.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Or when you're suffering or you're passing, like if you're if God is calling you home, all of a sudden your priorities come into focus. Um so with that in mind, and just in light of the last two episodes, it's it's felt smart to kind of build off this a little bit. And it's just kind of where I'm at. And so unfortunately, you guys, wherever I'm at, you get to be at with me. Um, in that, one of the one of the people that I really enjoy who speaks a lot about this, um, for probably because he suffered, especially towards the end of his life, uh is Tim Keller. He's got great research uh information. I would encourage you. We can drop some stuff maybe in the uh comments on YouTube. But here's a man that actually did die from pancreatic cancer back in uh 2023. Um and he has some just great words when it comes to it. And there are a few thoughts that he has he's given that I want to even break down. We've referenced uh Charles Taylor before. And now Charles Taylor, he's the one that wrote, I think it was 2009, his book on secularism. And this is this book, um, and kind of these ideas has really affected me because I'm struggling, if I'm completely honest, with just the mentality of where we are as a church and as a country and as a people. And and his book really opens and exposes some of our thought process as a Western culture. Um so what I want to kind of do is give a few thoughts that are kind of that even that Tim can Tim has addressed in some of his books and some of his messages, but kind of build off on some of those thoughts. And the first thing that I want to do

Why Modern Society Avoids Suffering

SPEAKER_02 6:05

about suffering is address this idea that in our Western culture that we are is not built on God. So let me just clarify when I say secularism, so you understand it in its fullness, is that we have no, we we don't believe God exists. And you can go, well, I believe he exists, yes, but your culture doesn't around you. So we have an atheistic culture, and because of that, they think to themselves, all right, so there's no life after death, we're not gonna stand before God. So what we do is we go, this is our best life now, which is ironic because that is a quote unquote Christian book. It's our best life, so you better enjoy it because this is all you have, which no other country or or culture has that mentality except for your Western civilization.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

And it causes huge issues because in that we don't even understand certain things. And it seeped into the church. Like, um, well, let me first just address this. Like, like if you go to you, you know, you just got back from India, you go to India, which is like a uh Hindu culture, they believe that when you suffer, it's because you did something wrong. So, so suffering means you're out of bounds and you need to get back within whatever the good karma or whatever. If you kind of travel more, I guess, more east at that point, you're you know, you're in kind of your more eastern religions. They believe suffering is a um growth of your character, right? So it's suffer you're placed in a place of pain, kind of that idea of no pain, no gain, which also is is not um, which is it's not wrong necessarily. And here's the beautiful thing about Christianity is that Christianity covers all of these ideas. And like there is a sense of where sometimes you're suffering because God's disciplining you, and sometimes you're suffering because God is growing you. So that you know, both have their uh this is the way, whereas us as Christians, like there, there's some different things. It's a relationship with God, why we're suffering in that moment. But as Christians, what I'm realizing is because it is you are protecting your best life now, what you're really doing is you're protecting your comfort at all cost. And I'm seeing it in my life, I'm seeing it in the community around me, I'm seeing it in our society. We protect comfort more than anything else in this world. In fact, I had a guy tell me the other day, and it was something that was healthy for him that he should be doing. Um, it was a spiritual growth thing. And I kid you not, this is exactly what he said to me. He's like, I can't do this because it really messes up my morning routine. And I thought to myself, what? Like, I don't even but in his mind, like it was like morning routine, even though it was all healthy stuff. It's not like he was waking up and drinking first thing in the morning. Like we go to extreme. No, he had a great morning routine, but but to mess it up in in order to do something that would have probably been good for his growth, it affected his comfort. Therefore, he's not gonna do it. I mean, we live in the land of opportunity. Everybody's like, we have one of the hardest working societies. And everybody's like, well, we're a hardworking society, but we don't do it out of a place of health. We do it so that we can fund our best life. Like, even in our pursuit, it's really for our comfort. Like, even the hard, we go to the gym, right? And don't get me wrong, you should go to the gym, you should be healthy, you should provide for your family. But we go to the gym because we really want a good-looking body that everybody can see. We don't go there just because of our health. Does that make sense? And I'm seeing that in kind of the society around us, no other culture operates like this. They understand that there's something bigger than them and not here. We are the biggest thing in our world, especially as Americans and unfortunately even as Christians. And because of that mentality, suffering is something we don't like to talk about. Suffering is something that we want to avoid. We don't understand it. And so we protect our comfort above all else. Um the problem with that, though, is that I'm seeing it in my life, and I'm seeing it just around me, is that it's leading to some direct disobedience, which is why I kind of want to address this. Um, and we'll get into some application and how it's leading to more disobedience at the end of this. But that's something I want you to understand. If you're avoiding

How Should Christians Understand Suffering?

SPEAKER_02 10:03

suffering, if you're trying to protect your comfort, it's not just apathy towards Christianity, it's apathy towards God. You you're probably walking in some sort of direct disobedience. Um, but as we get into this, I'm gonna give a couple of thoughts on suffering and then get into the application. But I'm gonna have a quick just disclaimer uh just because I don't know where everybody's at. There's a lot of the the question is how does a loving God allow suffering? Just for the record, most theologians, even most uh non-Christian, you know, uh what philosophers would argue that that's not really a hard argument to respond to. And it kind of goes back to that scripture that his ways are higher than ours. Like if you can understand all that God thinks and all that God does, that puts you in the place of God. And the reality is you can't know why he does that. And then you have to just go with what you do know is the fact that there was no suffering. We brought it into the world as a people, and it is by God's grace that he doesn't punish us every single day. I mean, we are fallen, we are broken, we've broken all of his laws. I I was at a conference one time in Ken Ham, who runs uh an awesome ministry called Answers in Genesis. He was asked by this, I know she was probably, I don't know, maybe 10 or 11. I remember her asking. She said, uh, my grandmother recently passed, and I missed her so much, and it's awful. And it was really sad. And then she was like, But you know, how does God take this woman from me? And, you know, he's so loving. And Kennah just had, I mean, he's very gentle, but he had such a great response. He goes, I completely understand. I'm so sorry for your loss. And he goes, but no offense, you're asking the wrong question. The question isn't, why did God take her? He goes, the question is why did God allow her to live? And so when you have that mentality about suffering, that's a pretty easy response. If you want more information on, if you're struggling to understand how God allows this to happen, um, we can provide more material. But I just wanted to add that disclaimer because that's not what we're going to talk about today, but at least cover that. So here's a couple of thoughts that I have on suffering. Uh, first, and we're gonna just obviously put all this foundation in scripture, is one, God promises that we will suffer. I mean, he just will. Uh, John 16, 33 says, I

Bible Verses About Suffering and Trials

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have said these things to you that in me you may have peace, which we've covered. In fact, we may have referenced that verse last podcast. But in the world, you have tribulation, which is this is defined as suffering. So you have this idea that it's like you are going to suffer. You you may have peace in me, but you will have suffering or tribulation. Second Timothy 3:12. In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. Whether that is from the forces here on earth or the forces exterior or the forces internal, you will have some sort of persecution, temptation, trials. We understand this. I want to throw uh just kind of give tribute to Tim Keller because see, I'm a big fan. And obviously, because he has such good stuff on uh suffering, I'm gonna try to quote him as much as possible. We like quoting people here. I like it. He gets all the quotes today. But Tim Keller says this this is gonna kick you in the butt. Any person who only sticks with Christianity as long as things are going his or her way is a stranger to the cross. I that is a phenomenal quote. I would argue that's not even just like sticking to like it's not even just Christianity. It's like the people that avoid suffering or avoid it, like they're not even growing. Like I just no pain, no gain is what we say. Like I just you can't keep going to the gym and just sitting in the sauna every single time. Like you have to have some sort of resistance. Like we understand that. The second thought I have is it's good to suffer, which is that no pain, no gain. This is this is Jesus. This is us, you know, this is God speaking to us. Like, this is not my thoughts. This is Peter, uh, 1 Peter 4 13. It says, Rejoice in so far as you share in Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. You're to rejoice in the sufferings that come your way. Psalms 119, 71. It is good for me that I was afflicted or suffered. These are all the way these are broken down, that I might learn your statues. That kind of reminds you of that Hinduism a little bit. Like I suffered so that I was, it was a disciplining that that taught me, right? We'll let Tim Killer speak. Just because you can't see or imagine a good reason why God would allow something bad to happen doesn't mean that there can't be one. So that's that understanding, it's good to suffer. And you may struggle, like understanding that, but the reality is you're put placing yourself in his thought process, and we shouldn't be doing that. So these are just a couple of thoughts, and then I've got one, one, one more final thought before we get into the application. And it's just some things that suffering teaches us when we're in that moment. You know, as I've been talking to my buddy that is, you know, not got a great diagnosis. It's just the thought pattern that he has is so much different than mine or or anybody else's I know. Like, I mean, he thinks he's gonna be with Jesus maybe in a year. The things he's a value, you know, he's valuing time with

How God Uses Suffering to Transform Us

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God now, time with his kids, time with his wife. We're just like, we're trying to think three years ahead for our business plan. There's nothing wrong with forecasting, there's nothing wrong with planning ahead, but being present is something that they that when you're suffering, you just really are. Uh this is 1 Peter 5.10, which I mean Peter really talks about suffering a lot. Uh so if you want a book on it, that's a that's a good one to start. But he says this. Um, and this is kind of coming from the point that suffering teaches us we're human and pushes us to rely on God. Uh, we'll get into this. Um just pause for a second here. We're we're gonna get into this on one of our episodes on anxiety. My buddy that that hopefully is gonna be able to do it. But we've been talking about embodiment. Like you have limitations as a human being that God puts on us. We think we're omnipresent, we're we're omniscient, we do. But God limits us, and one of the ways he does that is with suffering. Like nothing will make you feel more human than when you pull your back. You can be a grown man, dude, who can lift 400 pounds, and the moment you pull your back, you squeal like a baby, you can't get out of the bed anymore. It hurts to pee. Like you know what I'm saying? Like, nothing will make you realize your humanity faster than just something like that. Here's first Peter 5, 10. And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strength, and establish you. Who picks you up? He does. There's no more picking up yourself by your bootstraps. That's the mentality, that's that comfort, God may not be real, secularistic mentality that we have as a society that's not found in Scripture. Uh, 1 Corinthians 12, 9, but he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weakness so that Christ's power may rest on me. Your suffering, right, is where God shows his not only his ability to comfort you, to guide you, but his strength, not your own. Your your humanity, the faster you embrace your humanity, which is suffering right there, uh, the more you rely on Jesus. And that's where you should be. Tim Keller, we're gonna have two quotes for him. He deserves two of them in here. He says this you will never really understand your heart when things are going well. It is only when things go badly that you can see it truly. And that's because it is only when suffering comes that you realize who is the true God and what are the false gods in your lives. When the reality is, is most of the false gods in our lives is us, it could sadly be maybe a friendship, like, oh, I'm relying on this person, you know, I need this person. And and there's nothing wrong with a great friendship, but the reality is that God needs to take center stage in our life and suffering will push you to it.

Suffering Reveals False Idols in Our Lives

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Embrace the suffering, guys. Here's another one from him. As a man, this is this is great, and this can relate to us as guys. As a man who seemed about to lose both his career and his family, once said to me, This is a stressful moment, right? I think all of us guys can relate to that. He says, I always knew in principle that Jesus is all that you need to get through, but you really don't know Jesus is all that you need until Jesus is all that you have. The stripping of everything around us. It's a scary place to be, but it's the best place to be. Suffering. Suffering really does like I I'll never forget this. Uh it's funny, you know, you and I, you and I love to spear fish. Excited for our trip coming out. You you're in this water, guys, and you're you're looking for a fish, and you're like you've you know, you've flown here, you've booked everything, you've done all this work, you know, you're thinking about like we're probably gonna get a great dinner later, maybe it's on the water. You do you've thought through all the fun things that you're gonna do. You could have your entire year planned out, but you're about two, two and a half minutes underwater. And guess what? There's only one thing as your body starts to like, your chest starts to hurt, you think about one thing that you want, need, and that's oxygen. Like basic oxygen is all that you need. You can forget the fish, you can forget the mass uh, you know, ocean around you. All of a sudden, it becomes really finite what you need. That little, just that little bit of pressure and that little bit of desire, all of a sudden, I need oxygen more than anything in the world. Jesus should be the same way. That suffering should get to a place where we're all of a sudden we're like, he's all that I need. He's all that, he's the only thing that satisfies. Suffering, this is number two for what it teaches us. Suffering sanctifies our flesh. First Peter 4, one. Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. It will strip you of your sin. I was talking uh my buddy that did our Bible study yesterday. He, you know, we were just talking about you being not present and focusing on yourself. I mean, the temptation always arises just like that. Like that's the moment you know. If you're in something, if you're in a place of war or you're in a place of struggle, you're usually not thinking about that. But we look for sin uh in a place as a comfort, right? So you have two options in that. Romans 5, 3 through 5. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings because we know suffering produces perseverance, perseverance, character, and character hope. And hope does not disappoint. That's because it's rooted in God. Because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. James 1, 2 through 4. Count at all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds. We're supposed to look, suffering is something we embrace. For you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness, and steadfastness has its full effect that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. The reason we can't lack in anything is because Jesus is everything. And if we understand that he is the one that we're resting on, there's nothing that we're lacking. Number three, and this is the great thing about suffering, and this is so true. I was talking about this with a buddy yesterday. Suffering either

Why Trials Produce Perseverance and Hope

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pushes us away from God or towards him. Um, my wife uh grew up in a not a really great environment, and she had a twin sister, um, and both had the exact same upbringing. I'm not trying to compare that that everything that happened to them was the exact same, but just for understanding's sake, my wife chose Jesus as her answer to everything. And she was like, and when I say hell licious, there was a lot of bad in that. And then her twin sister chose drugs, the world, all the things had to offer. And sadly, I mean her her her sister passed because of a lot of those decisions. Um whereas my wife, you know, I would think hope that she would think she's blessed.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

As I say that, that would partly be because of me.

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But you know, she does she does have four kids and a and a roof over her home, and Lord willing, a a place where she's thriving and she's growing. And it's but to look at that, the this that's Easy to look at the hey, the decisions that are there. Obviously, there's some some fruit that's behind it, but it's either going to push you towards, like my wife will tell you, he's all that I had. And she doesn't blame God. She actually blames God for the grace that was received, whereas her sister would have blamed God for all the bad that was given. So suffering's going to do one of two things, pushes you towards him or away from him. So you have to have the faith in whether or not you believe that he works

How Your Response to Suffering Reveals Your Faith

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all things together for your good or not. That's really what it's coming down to. Do you believe that? You have to decide, like Psalms 23, that he walks beside us through the valley of the shadow of death. Do you believe he's beside you or not? Or do you think he caused the darkness? That's the question you have to ask. So it's either going to push you towards him or away from him. John's uh John 16, 33. We read this at the beginning, but I wanted to finish it because I didn't finish it intentionally. It says, I have said these things to you, said these things to you that in me you may have peace. In the world, you have tribulation or suffering. And then here's the part that I wanted to read now. But take heart, I have overcome the world. The darkness isn't because of him. The light and the peace that we have is because of him. Tim Keller, suffering is unbearable if you aren't certain that God is for you and with you. And he's right. It's unbearable. Fourth, it helps us develop love and compassion. Second Corinthians 1, 3 through 5. Praise be to God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all of our troubles so that we can comfort those in trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God. For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ. This is kind of like that virtue signaling that goes on in our society a little bit. Like everybody wants to help everybody and they live their privileged life. And it's like you've like what? You can't even speak to that. It's like, oh, I want to help these people. And you're just like, shut up. Like you have no place to do that. Does that make sense? It's it's kind of that mentality like uh we want to see the whole world, you know, set free and loved on. And you're like, bro, you can't even love your neighbor. You just want to say that from your comfort from your couch, if that makes sense. But if we've embraced the suffering that comes in our life and we've embraced him as our comforter, like my wife, if something bad happens, you're like, call my wife. You don't want to call me because I didn't have the things that she went through. Yeah. That's a place of health is and a place of safety. Galatians 6, 2, we know to carry each other's burdens. And in this we would fulfill the law of Christ. So let's get into some applications uh for you guys to practice this week. The first one is going to be super simple,

Practical Steps When You’re Walking Through Pain

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but uh it is hard because we're trying to change a mentality, and that's to thank God in the midst of your sufferings. If you believe that, if you believe, like most other cultures, that that that that suffering is going to help grow. Like if you're in the suffering in this moment and it's growing you in something, you should thank God for that. That you have the ability to to grow and that he's disciplining you into bringing you into something better. Yeah. The scripture says that he disciplines those whom he loves. So there's this idea that we should love the fact that no pain, no gain in that moment. So just thank him. If you guys are in the middle of it, even in your car as this podcast goes up, just thank him. Be like, Lord, this this stinks and it and it kind of sucks what I'm going through. But I thank you, this is an opportunity to find the my comfort into you, to strip everything away and to find my love in Jesus. Um, the second thing you can do is find someone who is suffering. Like someone that's kind of going through it. And that could be a myriad of different things. Like, I'm not going to try to sit here and pick one, but if it's someone who's just lost their job, it could be a death, you know, it could be something like that. Um, it could be someone that's struggling with maybe some temptation or addiction. I mean, that's a struggle. That's a suffering, right? Maybe self-induced, but still a suffering that's going on that could be something that they can develop into into character and draw them closer to Jesus. So call them, meet with them, talk with them. If we're going to fulfill the law of Christ and carry that burden with them, embrace that suffering to walk alongside of them. And and and there's a lot we can get into this. We're actually going to get into this. I already have it in a future podcast. But like this, it will be inconvenient. Like it's not just like, hey, bro, hope you're doing well. Like, no, if someone's in the midst of suffering, like it may cost you time and money. So, so meet that, be inconvenience for them. And then the final one that I would um that I'm gonna softly encourage you, slash slap your face with, is identify where your comfort has been an excuse for your disobedience. And this one should hit home for most of us. You live in a very privileged society. Um, your comfort isn't an excuse to disobey what God's asked. And you're like, well, I don't know if I'm doing no, you're doing it, bro. Let me just tell you right now. Um, we've normalized it. I I referred to the for the gentleman that was talking about his routine that he didn't want to be messed up, even though it was and he needed it for his spiritual growth. We have this idea that we will protect everything. I cannot tell you the amount of conversations. I I just had one actually with a guy, and um he said the things he was laying out before me, I said, Well, it sounds like you know what to do. And he's like, I gotta be tactful. I said this. Essentially, it would up, it would mess up my family dynamic and mess up some of the stuff of my marriage if I pursue God in this way. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, your comfort and your family dynamic is is being protected at all costs above your obedience. So I whatever that is for you, what are you protecting in your life right now? Like just sit in that. What are you what are you protecting that you know is just a comfort that you're wanting to, well, and you're using as an excuse. You know, I've talked about this before, and this is just because it was something we just recently did. I've had a lot of people like, you know, we decided to trade a long, you know, and this isn't to pat myself on the back. This is a conviction that I'm trying to walk out. We decided to trade a long family vacation for a missions trip. And it's so funny to me the amount of people that were like, well, why can't you do both? You can, but but they're missing the point when they ask that. It's like the the goal wasn't to be able to have my comfort and earn a crown in heaven. The goal was to put some sort of suffering and it cost me something because in that I want growth. Does that make sense? I don't judge you. If you not that I'm not against going to the beach or anything like that. And that's not like the the the you know the litmus test for your spirituality. I'm just giving you an example. What are you doing? And are you trading something? It's like we've talked about this a lot. Quit trading, you know, or trying to serve Christ and keeping that comfort to yourself. So that's what I'm want to, I'm challenging you guys. Where is your disobedience in your life? So please think about it. Write it down, open up, find an accountability partner, like we talked about at the beginning. Find a community of guys that are willing to call it out. You're like, hey, where do you think I'm protecting my comfort in my own life? And have a guy that's willing to tell you that. Like, dude, that this is this is wrong. And and and you need guys like that. I I'm thankful and grateful I have a lot of guys in my life like that. They're not always the most fun to talk to, but it helps me grow. So we're gonna leave obviously with a final quote with from Tim Keller. You

Tim Keller’s Perspective on Comfort and Meaning

SPEAKER_02 29:41

have to. Excuse me, we decide what conditions will make us happy, and then we work to bring those conditions about. You know, like like we talked about this in the beginning. It's like, like, well, it's like, well, I'm denying myself. I'm getting up early and working hard at my job. It's like, yeah, but bro, you're doing that to live your best life. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't work hard, but why do you work hard? Tim goes on to say this to live for happiness means that you're trying to get something out of your life. But when suffering comes along, it takes the conditions for happiness away. And so suffering destroys all reasons to keep living. But to live for meaning means not that you try to get something out of your life, out of life, but rather that life expects something from us. In other words, you have meaning only when there is something in your life more important than your own personal freedom and happiness, something for which you are glad to sacrifice your happiness. I'm watching guys suffer around me, and their goal isn't to be happy. They realize that life is so much more than that. They're willing to sacrifice that temporary happiness to just be present and to love on people and to and to have relationship and community because the life that they're living is ending now. Ben Sass said at the beginning, community, family relationships. He's not chasing his best life now or trying to grow his career, right? It's just not. Suffering allows us to understand what true peace, comfort, and joy comes from, and it comes from resting at the feet of Jesus. This is my final thought, and then we'll wrap it up here. Your comfort men isn't the goal, your growth is, is why we do this podcast, and we hope this helps you embrace to not run from difficulties, but to actually embrace them so we can grow all the more in Christ. Let's suffer more this week and embrace it. Those are my thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Yeah, dude. This is this is kind of the exact opposite of our cultural dynamic of I mean you laid it out very well. Scripture is very clear that suffering produces character and character hope. Um I've found in my life. If I didn't have suffering, I would be an arrogant, miserable person. You know? So what it produces in you, I think is significantly greater than the comfort that you're seeking.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

I think that you will find that it's kind of like the guys that are like the meatheads at the gym. You know, it's like they they have this ambition for pain, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

I'm not gonna sit here and judge their all their motives, but there's they're receiving the most growth. Because they've learned to embrace this is where we grow. Discomfort. Discomfort, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

That's good. For somebody who may be in the season where they recognize that there's some something that they're suffering with. How do you think somebody can differentiate between what the what's the verse where people who uh pursue wealth pierce themselves with calamities? Calamities. Um How do you think somebody can differentiate between whether that suffering is something that they've maybe they're pursuing the wrong thing, or it's something that God's teaching them uh something in their life?

SPEAKER_02 33:16

They may look the exact same on the outside, but I think it's gonna just obviously come down to your your heart posture. Um and and the best way for me to to show you if God's correcting you is usually based on your response. So if like you're meeting this new, if the market shifts, right? Which it you know, which it currently is, if my response is anxiety, frustration, and anger, it shows you I'm trying to protect something that I built. If my response is to get on my knees and be like, I trusted you from the beginning and whether it was gonna go well or bad, it shows that I was had the right heart heart posture. So sometimes it can be a little bit of both, like right. I I can't define that for you. Sometimes it's God, hey, I'm gonna kind of course correct you. And then sometimes it's a discipline, like, hey, you've really gotten conceited, and you were like David, and you started counting all the people and what you've accomplished, and God's like, no, I'm gonna stop that. Um, and sometimes it's a reminder, so it's twofold. Like, I mean, you look at Paul, who was this awesome man. I mean, he had a some sort of physical, you know, ailment that God allowed for him, this cross he had to bear. Some people think it may be emotional, whatever it was, that he had to deal with to show that he had to rely on God. So for you, for you guys that are that whatever suffering comes in, whether I think you'll know in that moment whether it's disobedience that he's trying to correct or he's just trying to, even if it's like a a non-direct uh disobedience that he's trying to correct some some things in your heart. Either way, it's gonna produce it. Absolutely. It's gonna refine you.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

And whether or not you deal with it now or you deal with it later, like it just gets more and more painful.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

It's gonna get more thank you. That's actually a great point. It will. Like, I mean, if he if you are walking with God, he will ensure that you are course correct because he loves you and he cares for you, he wants you to get better. Yeah. Um, it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

That's true. It's like the people who who they don't tithe or they're not giving and they say, I'll do it once I reach this certain level, right? Exactly. Um I mean, you have an opportunity to embrace that sanctification, br embrace the the suffering in whatever capacity it is right now. Because if you don't, it's just gonna like exacerbate itself down the road.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Always. There's so many thoughts on comfort. We live like in I mean, we have the most instant gratification culture ever. And so we avoid it at all cost, pain and suffering.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Dude, I know. Like last night I ordered something on Amazon because I'm like, I don't want to drive to Walmart. Right, of course. I I mean the pain and suffering of going to Walmart.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

But something she should have to endure. But no, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Like, but I mean, yes, the the the convenient. I mean,

Final Thoughts: Embracing Growth Through Hardship

SPEAKER_02 35:56

we'll use things like what's convenient, it's saving time. And there are some times that's a reality, but the excuses that we have, let's just be real, guys. Yeah, yeah, let's be real.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Um this is really good. I know this is something that's near and dear to both of our hearts. It's something that I've I I I feel like I'm constantly in some sort of state of suffering. Does it ever end? How much disobedience is in your life? No, just that's that I don't think is that is that something where you can easily just correlate it to, oh, I must be disobedient here, or is it just God's pruning you and stripping away nobody knows except you, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Yeah, you know, and and I I would say probably a lot more pruning if if the pursuit is him, usually. Um, but I I I my prayer is that whatever it is, is that especially if you guys are listening to this, that God does do something in you because the suffering's worth it, because he's worth it. The end prize of our suffering is him.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Yeah, it's good, good point to end. Awesome, guys. Well, I hope you enjoyed this. Hope you're blessed by it. And um, again, if you got any questions, if you want to reach us, info at mondaymorningmen.com, and we will see you next week.